Forty Years Ago Today: “A Festival of Remembrance”, The Sisters of Mercy at the Royal Albert Hall, London

 

Forty years ago tonight (Tuesday 18th June 1985), The Sisters of Mercy played their final gig of the 1980’s, the iconic “A Festival of Remembrance” show at London’s stunning Royal Albert Hall, recorded for posterity and released on the Wake video the following year.

The main facts about the gig - the early start, Gary spending the night (also his birthday) in the pub back in Wakefield rather than playing with the band one final time, the final encore which caught out the film crew and many fans, the esoteric pre-gig programme, Hussey’s wild night on the eve of the gig, Lemmy’s ‘encouragement’ backstage to Eldritch for that final encore - have all been well-documented down the years, and the gig has already featured twice in anniversary posts on this blog, one commemorating the final appearance of stalwart bass player Craig Adams whose signature sound had been such an integral part of The Sisters’ unique sonic appeal, the other drawing together reminiscences and ephemera relating to the gig.

There seemed to be little more to reveal about this legendary event in the history of alternative music until Bruno Bossier, collector extraordinaire and a fellow moderator on Phil Verne’s seminal The Sisters of Mercy 1980-1985 Facebook fan page, contacted me to reveal that he had come into possession of the contracts for the Royal Albert Hall gig, and that most generously he would be happy for me to reveal appropriate extracts from these precious items on the blog as his personal contribution to celebrating the concert’s fortieth anniversary.

The documents comprised of a standard The Sisters of Mercy gig contract rider for all 1985 shows, and further contracts relating to this specific gig. As previously discussed, Andrew Eldritch had mentioned in an interview after the Stockholm press conference in mid-May that the band would be playing two nights at the Royal Albert Hall in June, and the first of Bruno’s recently-acquired contracts indeed regards engaging The Sisters for two nights at the London venue, with a show planned for Monday 17th June as well as for the following night when the gig actually took place. This contract was drawn up on May 2nd 1985, the night The Sisters played another famous show (in Rome, but I think that we’re all aware of that!) and was signed on behalf of Merciful Release/Troubadour (another offshoot based at the band’s All Saints Rd office in London, presumably separate for accounting purposes) by manager (and former Eldritch Oxford contemporary) Boyd Steemson. Almost certainly because of slow ticket sales for the announced gig on the 18th, this contract has two diagonal lines across it and the legend “cancelled”. With the band having toured the UK just a couple of months earlier, when the £3.50 ticket price also included the additional entertainment of The Scientists as support act, the cancellation of the second night is hardly surprising, given that press announcements only alluded to the fact that it would be the final gig of one band member (and in a New York interview a fortnight earlier, Eldritch had said “We’ve got one final date in Britain and it’ll be Gary’s last. A sort of memorial day in more than one way”) rather than the final chance to see any combination of the classic line-up, which is what transpired.

The second contract, also on The Station Agency headed paper, which replaced the cancelled two night contract, was only drawn up a week before the intended first show, on 10th June 1985, which was shortly after the band’s final gig of the US leg of the Armageddon tour which had taken place in New York on 7th June.

One clause of interest in the contract relates to the timings of the hall hire, with the band due to pay a penalty should the gig continue after 10 p.m., which possibly explains the show’s earlier than usual start (traditionally it was only Sunday gigs that began early, for licensing reasons). This caught out some attendees who had assumed that the headliner would not be on stage before around 9 p.m., as was usually the case at gigs at that time.

There is also a clause in the contract regarding encores, with a clear instruction not to put the house lights on until the artiste has decided that there will be no (further) encores, as was standard practice. For the Royal Albert Hall gig, the house lights did indeed come on before the final encores (to quote Nigel McK of the 1980-85 FB group, “The lights were on, the roadies were on stage, people were out on the street going home, when suddenly the Doktor starts pounding out the Sister Ray beat and it was all kicking off again!"), the traditional signal that the show was over, and many fans left the venue and missed the end of the band’s final performance as a result. Clearly there was some miscommunication, or Eldritch had already given the signal before Lemmy convinced him to return to the stage one last time…

There are also details in the contract of the capacity of the venue where Siouxsie and the Banshees and Echo and the Bunnymen had been the only alternative acts to headline in the past (both in 1983), although The Smiths had also recently played there very recently on their Meat Is Murder tour. The normal capacity of 3,430 was reduced for The Sisters’ show to 3,232 in order to allow a suitably sized zone for the mixing desk and for the extended stage on which the band would play.

Interestingly, the contract also lists the expected costs of the evening, including the cost of the hire of the hall, posters and advertising, box office services, security staff, staging and stage crew and front of house staff. In addition, the costs of the band and crew riders (£500 - more of which later) and the fifty strong guest list were also to be deducted from the ticket revenue, as well as the band’s own fee and the promoter’s standard fee,  before the surplus was split between the promoter and the band, largely in the latter’s favour, as their fee had to cover all their own additional expenses (transport/crew/equipment hire etc). Even The Sisters’ parking requirements are listed, indicating the scale of the band’s performance by this stage.

The refreshment rider itself was one of many items stipulated in a separate document, the contract rider, a booklet with a blue cover (the first image on this post) which stipulated the band’s demands and requests for all venues at which they would play that year. Seasoned Sisters watchers will not be surprised to learn that the very first clause stipulated that the band’s name was to be used in full (ie with the definite article) in all publicity, although no potential penalties were listed for any breach of this requirement. 

 The band also reserved the right of final approval of any support band engaged by the promoter for the show, a clause which Eldritch has invoked on several occasions over the years (usually if he felt that the act proposed was too goth!).

Given Eldritch’s well-known anti-Nazi views, it’s pleasing to note that the contract is unequivocal about this issue (possibly a response to the Maastricht gig in 1984), as well as (post-York Festival?) containing a clear warning about the consequences of over-zealous security staff.

Amongst the many other demands, most of which were standard requests from touring bands in the 80’s, of particular interest to many will be the band’s rider, ie the food and drink to be provided in the dressing room in addition to the usual pre-gig hot meal for staff and crew (and there is a separate hospitality rider list for the latter).

Looking at The Sisters’ list, it is no surprise to see that copious amounts of Wayne’s legendarily favourite tipple, Blue Nun white wine, features early on in the list, with Eldritch’s beverage of choice (vodka) also inevitably appearing, along with an impressive 36 cans of lager (in addition to the dozen provided earlier in the day) and assorted soft drinks. There is an interesting nota bene at the bottom of the rider, with the request that the spirits should be given only to the Tour Manager and not left in the dressing room. Whether this was for reasons of potential theft (where spirits fly?) or inebriation is not clear, but clearly a salutary lesson has been learned at some point in the past! In short, there is ample choice and sufficient volume of alcohol for any performer seeking to become comfortably numb…

Huge thanks to Bruno for generously sharing these unique items from his expensively-assembled collection, which provides interesting background detail for a gig which for some was the end of an era following the band, whilst for others its abridged video recording (released by Polygram in August of 1986 after WEA passed up the chance to release it ) was their introduction to the mysteries of The Sisters of Mercy.

Through The Cables And The Paisley Underground now?

 By the time The Sisters of Mercy’s début album First And Last And Always hit the record store racks in March 1985, the UK music press had largely already dismissed the band as Joy Division/Bauhaus copyists and crowned them as the leaders of the nascent “gothic rock” movement, much to the band’s evident horror.

Despite Eldritch’s regular proclamations that his troupe was just a “rock’n’roll band” who were in tune with the “spirit of Altamont”, and the fact that their choice of cover versions (Velvet Underground, Rolling Stones, The Stooges etc) marked them out as a very different musical and spiritual kettle of fish to the house bands of the Batcave club night in London, the die was cast.

A photo of Wayne Hussey from 1984 which he recently shared online and which shows his image on joining The Sisters of Mercy after his stint in Dead Or Alive

The Sisters may not have referenced all things Halloween or horror movie tropes in their lyrics, but the stark monochrome iconography of the band’s record sleeves, the use of a certain colour in lyrics (“devil in a black dress”, “black planet, black world”, “far beyond the black horizon” etc), Eldritch’s habit of sporting clothes of that hue and singing in a sepulchral bass-baritone, and a couple of ill-advised locations for photo-shoots saw the group pigeonholed into an unwanted genre from which they still struggle to escape some forty years later. But if not ‘goth’, which other categories might be appropriate? In previous posts on this blog, we have confirmed that TSOM developed out of the Leeds punk and post-punk scene based around the F Club, but by 1985 the band were also flirting with early 70’s classic rock, having been able to obtain the entire Led Zeppelin back catalogue from the WEA archives.

So whilst many music journalists within the insular UK scene were happy to label the band as “gothic”, their colleagues across the Channel and the Atlantic were much more able to view The Sisters in the wider context envisioned by the band’s singer and primary decision maker, and the band’s status in 1985 and its immediate aftermath (which saw record company purse strings opened considerably further for the ambitious and ultimately successful Floodland project) owed more to this broader appreciation than to the narrow “godfathers of goth” stereotype.

Whilst both the band and their UK (and European) record company (WEA) seemed to have become obsessed with obtaining a Top 40 single and an appearance on famed BBC TV chart show Top Of The Pops as an indication of current and future success - after all, the band’s initial ambition on forming in 1980 had been to hear themselves on the radio in the John Peel show - as we observed in the recent fortieth year anniversary post on this blog celebrating the release of FALAA, the début album in contrast to the singles sold surprisingly well, not just in the UK, but also in Europe, hinting at the band’s future longevity.

Buoyed by successful tours of both the UK and mainland Europe, the album spent an impressive nine weeks in the European Top 100 Albums chart that spring, as compiled by the European Music Report and published by Dutch industry magazine Euro Tipsheet. As can be seen from the chart of 29th April reproduced below, the album was still in the Top 40 in its sixth week on the chart, and featured in the national album charts of the UK, Belgium, West Germany and Sweden, one of very few alternative albums to grace the list.

The broader appeal of The Sisters of Mercy to music fans beyond the UK was certainly clear from the noticeably heterogenous appearance of those attending the gig at the Zaal Voruit in Gent (Belgium) which I witnessed that same month, but is further explained in a second extract from Euro Tipsheet published exactly forty years ago today, 10th June 1985. 

In an opinion piece about how fragmented and unpredictable the music scene was becoming, the author “Yuro D. Jay” (geddit??) excitedly singles out The Sisters for their physical appearance as evidence of a hippy psychedelia revival, which apparently but understandably included Prince (this was the year of Raspberry Beret, after all). Many music industry figures had been shaken to the core by the dogmatic Year Zero approach adopted by punk and its followers, and signs that new, hip and happening (“and believe me they are in”) bands like The Sisters were adopting a more nuanced approach gave them hope that their professional careers might not have been in vain, with The Sisters gaining support whilst harking “back to the days of joints and incense, love and peace and good old poetry”.

As previously noted, in common with many ‘alternative’ bands, The Sisters of Mercy chose not to have band photos or identities on the sleeves of their vinyl releases (and they had put out no fewer than nine singles and EPs by this stage) meaning that for many journalists, the portraits by rock snapper extraordinaire Jill Furmanovsky on the inner sleeve of FALAA were their first introduction to Eldritch, Marx, Hussey and Adams. The unfashionable long hair, the paisley shirts and shades owed much to the hippy and beatnik era of the late 1960’s, leading to a reappraisal of the band’s worldview in the minds of these journalists.

Although Andrew Eldritch has made the unlikely claim that “it took years to realise that I even had an image”, the more colourful band wardrobe at this stage was clearly meant to send a signal to those still erroneously convinced that the band had a funereal worldview. “If we were a goth band, would we allow two members to wear paisley and one to wear what seems like a tie-dye poncho of some sort??? Huh, would we???” (from a 2024 interview with Creem). A further band promo photo taken by Furmanovsky at the same time (and recently shared by her online), on a visit to the band’s recording sessions at Genetic near Reading, is further evidence that Eldritch was correct to feel exasperated by the music press’s incorrect assumptions about his band.

It was not only in Europe, however, that the band were seen as heralding a new dawn of psychedelia rather than a gothic apocalypse. Another revered trade paper, this time in the USA, The Gavin Report, was fulsome of their praise of the Sisters’ début album, finding it “hard to hang a label on” (unlike their UK counterparts) in their review which highlighted tracks for radio DJ’s to focus on.

 The Sisters’ LP ranked highly in their Alternative album chart for months, thanks in part to strong reactions from college radio stations supplied (presumably by their helpful US label Elektra) with early import copies before the mid-April official release Stateside.

Indeed, such was the success of the album that it featured at number 25 in The Gavin Report’s annual rundown of the most impactful alternative albums of 1985, sandwiched between some unlikely bedfellows (Bronski Beat and Dire Straits)!

The “p” word (mercifully, rather than the dreaded “g” word) was again in evidence in seminal US music mag Billboard’s brief review of FALAA in the issue dated 27th April 1985. 

This was particularly interesting as the illustrious publication had previously listed The Sisters (alongside The March Violets, Crown of Thorns and … Dead or Alive, who had up to this point featured Wayne Hussey on guitar) as the vanguard of a new wave of UK psychedelia in a piece on the return of the genre, which featured on the front page of the 13th August 1983 edition. Roman Kozak’s piece suggested that “new psychedelia” was the “next big thing”, based mainly around West Coast acts such as Dream Syndicate, Rain Parade, The Bangles, Green on Red and True West, and East Coast garage bands like The Chesterfield Kings and The Fuzztones. 

These bands would soon find themselves pigeonholed as the “Paisley Underground” movement, due to their shared love of the music of the likes of earlier US acts like Byrds and Love. Contemporary journalist Pat Thomas described the sound as a “marriage of classic rock and punk”, with serious musicianship blending with a “punk DIY ethic,” so with a talented guitarist with a penchant for a twelve-string (an an earlier band called the Ded Byrds) and a singer whose commitment to the DIY punk ethic is legendary, it is perhaps no surprise that The Sisters should find more in common with bands of this genre (who, incidentally, all rejected the label attached to them!) than with the Alien Sex Fiends and Sex Gang Childrens of the UK scene.

Two names which stand out from that list of Paisley Underground artists are True West, who played two gigs with The Sisters (New York and San Francisco in the Autumn of 1983) and a band positively namechecked by Eldritch in college radio interviews, during which he also stated on several occasions that he had tried to licence The Chesterfield Kings’ LP as a Merciful Release in the UK, but without success.  

Although the public never really warmed to the Paisley Underground acts despite heavy promotion (for example, Green On Red’s 1985 classic album Gas Food Lodging peaked at 99 in the UK album charts and was only 95th on The Gavin Report’s annual countdown above), preferring the similar but more immediate folky jangle pop of REM, it’s clear that outwith their native UK The Sisters of Mercy were viewed as far more than merely a cartoonish goth act, but rather as a bona fide alternative rock act who could straddle genres and had the potential to achieve the substantial commercial success that the next iteration of the band (and one of its offshoots) would indeed attain. 

With WEA boasting other bands with psychedelic leanings (Echo and the Bunnymen and The Jesus and Mary Chain) on their roster garnering commercial and critical acclaim, the positive and open-minded reception afforded to The Sisters of Mercy’s début LP in both Europe and the US will have only encouraged the label to continue to back Andrew Eldritch’s musical instincts, even to the lengths of the budget for the Jim Steinman excesses on This Corrosion. For all its perceived failings at the time, and despite being burdened with the label of the “quintessential goth album” ever since, rather than confining the band to the gothic ghetto,  First And Last And  Always opened up a world of wider possibilities which Eldritch (and, to a slightly lesser extent, Hussey and Adams) would skilfully exploit over the next decade.

Forty Years Ago Tonight: The Sisters of Mercy played a gig at the Paradiso, Amsterdam (14/04/1985)

 Forty years ago tonight, The Sisters of Mercy played their only Dutch date of 1985 at the legendary Paradiso in Amsterdam, and it’s pleasing to be able to report that both the band and the converted church concert venue are still going strong four decades later. For The Sisters, it was the third night of the Armageddon tour in Europe, a mere 97 mile drive from the indoor festival in Genk (Belgium) the previous night, with the promise of a blank (travel) day thereafter. As the band acclimatised to life on the road as a trio, the set list continued to change for every gig at this stage, with Train promoted to final encore for this show.

Gig poster courtesy of LG

Listening back to a YouTube audio of The Sisters’ performance at the gig, the impact of Gary Marx’s departure is ironically most clearly heard on Wayne Hussey’s own compositions, with Marian, Walk Away and No Time To Cry sounding “thin” with just the one guitar in the mix, although Hussey gamely tries to play both parts on the latter. Earlier, more frenetic songs, such as the Alice, Floorshow and Body Electric trilogy towards the end of the main set fare much better, but on other tracks from First And Last And Always, such as the title track and A Rock And A Hard Place, Eldritch’s struggles with his vocal range are more apparent in the more spartan sound, although with less aural competition, Craig Adams’ funked up basslines on Body & Soul and Possession get even more opportunity to shine.

Rarely for this tour there was a notable support act in the shape of Folk Devils, who (like Australian band The Scientists who had provided support on the then recently-completed UK tour) were signed to the Karbon Records imprint of Nick Jones, who had been in charge of The Sisters of Mercy’s London office in Notting Hill. Incidentally, Gary Marx’s next project, Ghost Dance, would also sign with Jones’ Karbon imprint. Featuring firebrand frontman the late Ian Lowery (previously singer with punk band The Wall), Folk Devils were enjoying some success at that time with their Fire And Chrome EP which features the track English Disease, and they enjoyed hanging out at the gig with The Sisters according to bassist Mark Whiteley, who offered this anecdote when asked to recount a touring memory in an online interview a decade ago: “Getting drunk with Andrew Eldritch and Al, Folk Devils’ drummer at the time, in a room that had been a Gestapo torture chamber with Al insisting on calling Andrew, Dave all night. “So Dave, do you like bein’ in this f***in’ band of yours then?”  Eldritch looks up and says “Do you think I’d wear this stupid f***in’ hat if I didn’t like bein’ in this f***in’ band."  T’was a moment of hilarity.” You probably had to be there…

Photo of Eldritch shared on the 1980-1985 FB group, photographer unknown

This gig was the first attended by noted Dutch fan Bert Mayenburg, who for many years has run his own website devoted to the band and their shows which he has attended down the decades (and continues to attend). For this Paradiso concert, Bert tracked down some excellent photos of the band on stage which can be seen on his website, which were taken by photographer George Bekker.

One of George Bekker’s shots of the gig on Bert Mayenburg’s highly recommended website

Maria Moore was another fan present, and she took these wonderful pictures of the fog-free soundcheck, which she kindly shared on Facebook. These clearly show the ecclesiastical interior which was the perfect backdrop for the band (and it was a Sunday after all), and the venue’s natural high ceiling allowed the sound to erm, rise and reverberate.

Two great shots from the soundcheck (no dry ice!), courtesy of Maria Moore

Another fan who attended the gig, Tomas Rejda commented on The Sisters of Mercy 1980-1985 unofficial Facebook fan group: “I was there too and I was lucky to get the poster too in my possession. Don't remember much about Folk Devils. But the gig was fantastic, purple haze with the logo zooming in and out of the smoke....”

But if fans loved the band’s performance, the reaction from the Dutch press was arguably the most negative the band had encountered to date, possibly partially as a result of the band’s reneging on other potential dates in the Netherlands. In the large circulation national daily De Volkskrant, the late Peter Koops reveals at the start of his review that this sole Dutch date at the Paradiso should have been followed by other dates in the country, but that the band had received a better offer from Germany and cancelled them. This would explain why the band were advertised to be playing a gig at Spuugh venue in Vaals on May 12th, a show which never took place, and other gigs in the Netherlands had similarly been pencilled in, at the Vrije Vloer in Utrecht on May 8th, and return trips to Rotterdam’s Arena on 10th May and Den Haag’s Paard van Troje the following evening. During that second week in May, the band in fact played a further six dates in West Germany, having already completed seven shows in the country immediately after the Paradiso gig.

Full list of planned Dutch dates from Het Parool newspaper, published at a time when the gigs had already been replaced by concerts in West Germany

The De Volkskrant review reveals that the Paradiso show was a near sell-out, but that it was not all good news, as the band’s tour van was broken into that evening. Like many contemporary reviewers, Koops bemoans the sheer amount of dry ice, so much so that “the group’s logo, projected onto four round screens, was barely visible.” In silhouette, Andrew Eldritch and Wayne Hussey, with their “black leather, their fashionably ripped jeans, dark sunglasses and hats” appeared to Koops to have made detailed studies of the Sandeman figure, “the man in the cape”. Because of the on-stage fog, it was only some way into the gig that Koops realised that Gary Marx was not present, and the well-informed writer quotes conflicting accounts for his absence (according to the band, Marx had missed the ferry, but the rumour circulating was that he had been sacked on the eve of the tour). Koops found the set highly derivative (of Joy Division) and found the cover versions no relief, going as far as to feel “vicarious embarrassment” at the cover of Gimme Shelter. He did however enjoy the “kaleidoscopic lighting effects” during Amphetamine Logic, “the anthem of a band known to be heavy users”, a blunt accusation one cannot imagine escaping the sub-editor’s blue pencil in the UK, if my rudimentary translation skills are correct. The journalist also felt that the lukewarm applause didn’t merit the lengthy encores which followed, especially the closing b-side Train, which was typical of the “monotonous doom-disco” (a phrase with which his review was titled) of the whole evening, before his parting shot: “It was a sign of the sense of humour of those in charge of the music at the Paradiso that immediately after all that artificially gloomy misery, they blasted ABBA’s banally cheerful Gimme Gimme Gimme (A Man After Midnight).” Presumably Koops was unaware that this was a previous Sisters cover version, played regularly at gigs the previous year, but he appreciated the contrast all the same.

Interesting comment on Amphetamine Logic in De Volkskrant. It’s hard to imagine such a comment being made in a UK newspaper at that time.

A second newspaper NRC Handelsblad (which is widely regarded as the “newspaper of record” in the Netherlands according to Wikipedia) had a correspondent, Jan Vollaard, at the gig, and his heading “Sisters of Mercy undone by humourless posturing” (again, I may be losing something in translation) indicates that the band is in for another bashing. This time, Eldritch is accused of copying David Bowie, a common charge which could have been made against most singers of the early 80’s, and The Sisters are accused of offering nothing new - “leaden doom rock from the prophets of doom.” Gary Marx’s absence is again commented upon, as it “drew attention to the banality of Wayne Hussey’s performance, ranging from heavily accented minor chords to finger exercises on the level of Farmer, There’s A Chicken In the Water” [a nursery rhyme whose simple five tone up and down scale forms the traditional first piano lesson]. Like Koops, Vollaard was equally unimpressed by both the band’s own compositions and their cover versions, and ended with a withering flourish: “There was plenty of smoke….but no fire was to be found.” Whilst less informative the the De Volkskrant review, the NRC Handelsblad piece was at least accompanied by an excellent photo, thanks to Lex van Rossen.

Atmospheric photo by Lex van Rossen from NRC Handelsblad

 A third newspaper, Het Parool (an Amsterdam daily paper) also covered the show, and if anything the review by Peter van Brummelen was even more damning, proclaiming three songs in that he knew that the gig would be a “long-winded event” rather than a “thrilling evening”. Believing that ‘positive punk’ (a proto-goth movement the Sisters were often lumped in with) was a mixture of doom, psychedelia and heavy metal, van Brummelen could hear traces of Joy Division, the Velvet Underground and Black Sabbath in the Leeds band’s sound. Whilst he thinks that on record this can yield “fairly interesting results”, on stage the band were “a downright horror”, “a bunch of pathetic poseurs” of whom drum machine Doktor Avalanche “shows the most character.” Eldritch’s look (“a degenerate Sandeman”), lyrics (“cliché-laden, about death, decay and other ‘scary things’”) and vocal style (“devoid of melody”) come in for the most personal criticism this side of Wayne Hussey’s infamous review of Gift, and for van Brummelen the band failed to create any sense of “tension” or an “ominous atmosphere.”

Het Parool’s review descends into character assassination!

These negative reviews, by three highly-respected music journalists it must be said - Van Brummelen and Vollaard are in fact still employed by the same newspapers to this day - are perhaps typical of the reaction of some of the more mainstream music fans stumbling across the Sisters ‘live’ for the first time, bewildered or frustrated by the shrouds of dry ice, aurally assaulted by the relentless pulse of Doktor Avalanche, and bemused by the crow-like figure with the sepulchral voice fronting it all. Whilst an amused Eldritch had enjoyed a wry smile whilst observing the clientele of the Warehouse club as retold in the lyrics of Floorshow, it was becoming clear that the 1985 version of the band would provoke a mixture of distaste, boredom and revulsion from some of those whose usual musical preferences resided within narrower or more traditional parameters, and this perhaps explains why greater commercial success remained beyond their grasp at this stage.

My thanks for this post are due to the photographers, collector LG, Phil Verne of the 80-85 FB group, and Maria Moore, Tomas Rejda, Bert Mayenburg and other members of that FBgroup quoted above.